Wednesday, January 02, 2008

The Most Overcrowded Country in Europe

Leo McKinstry, a resident of Westgate-on-Sea explains why he's fatalistic in today's Daily Mail. Perhaps, if he reads ThanetLife, he might contribute to any discussion thread on the subject?

"Then my wife and I moved to a village on the north Kent coast called Westgate-on-Sea, near the town of Margate. What captivated us about the place was that its Victorian architecture was largely intact, especially in the street where we had bought our little terrace house.

We felt that we had found a kind of England that had all but disappeared. Yet almost as soon as we moved in, we learned that our next- door neighbours - who lived in a large, attractive period home set in a beautiful leafy garden - had put in a planning application to demolish their property and build two large apartment blocks in its place.



Driven by nothing more than naked greed, the plan - which has been rejected by the local council but is now subject to appeal - is almost laughable in its destructive intent.

If approved, it would ruin the conservation area, make the street far more congested and wipe out part of our village's rich heritage. It is a measure of how much England is in thrall to developers that this outrageous scheme has even been contemplated. But then it seems that vandalism is now regarded as the official duty of the state."

Read on...

Thanks to Cllr Cameron for scanning the old map he owns which is now in the 'Photo library' in the sidebar. Another old 1849 map from Michael Child can be found here.

47 comments:

Tony Beachcomber said...

A bit misleading calling Westgate on Sea a village. Is he a political commentator by any chance?

DrMoores said...

I rather wonder if this is Harold Road? Westgate is frequetly referred to as the village but that's possibly a conseuence of nostalgia these days!

Tony Beachcomber said...

Westgate on Sea once had it's own council and a Town hall.

At one point during the Victorian era Westgate on Sea was referred to as "Mayfair by the sea".
The trains during that period didn't stop to a timetable, special stop orders were issued for first class passengers only.
I have a feeling knees up mother brown didn't go down to well in Westgate and this was the Victorian way of keeping the Margate excursions out.

DrMoores said...

The book I have from the turn of the century shows Westgate in its finest light as a "Gated" community.

The gate ran across Westgate Bay Ave at Old Boundary Rd next to the tennis courts.

Now there's an idea!

Anonymous said...

The Town Hall was never used as such - and no bungalows were allowed to be built on the sea side of the railway lines - with the Fannet Yoof problems all too widely prevalent in Westgate I would not regard it as quite so desirable a place to live now as the article makes out but then I have lived there since the 60's when it was truly a wonderful place to be.

Anonymous said...

Having lived in Westgate for only 45 years (and no I am not 45 but 62) I have always known Westgate as a Village, this being passed on from an older generation to myself (The Late Mr Read and his era). Maybe it is just the insurgence of newcomers, developers and those business people who vandalise the character whom prefer to call it a town.

I may be wrong Dr. Moores but my understanding was that the gates were actually on the single carriageway- as it was then- of the Canterbury Road. Perhaps if Mr Hambidge the well known authoritarian of Westgate has the pictures he would be able to confirm this.

Could any of your non extremist contributors to this site let me know how Westgate~on~Sea obtained its name?

SS

Michael Child said...

SS I have published the relevant page from the 1736 edition of John Lewis’s history of Thanet at http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/id210.htm for you as far as I know it is the earliest reference to the naming of Westgate and all subsequent histories have concurred.

Anonymous said...

Many Thanks Mr Child for the information.

SS

DrMoores said...

My Grandmother told me she remembered a gate at this spot, where she lived since teh early 1900s but she may have been wrong!

Michael Child said...

Glad to be able to help SS.

Simon I think a little confusion here seems to have occurred, in as much as the name Westgate predates Westgate having the gates that many people remember. Westgate is particularly unusual in that it was a Victorian new town the middle bit being designed by Charles Nightingale Beazley, roughly like a series of London type squares surrounded by large private houses in their own grounds. The roads were all private hence several gates where the private roads met the public roads, rather like the Sandwich estate today.

DrMoores said...

Michael - v.Useful - Thanks.

We've been here for 100 years and I'm guessing that Old Boundary Rd" was just that at one point in time, marking the border, as it des today between Westbrook and Westgate!

Tony Beachcomber said...

Annon 11:44 , The Victorian railway company renamed Westgate Station to Westgate on Sea and from there the name stuck.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for that, Michael – very interesting

I have a lovely old map of Thanet dating (I think) from around 1790, which shows “Westgate Bay”, but no structures here then, unlike Dent-de-Lion nearby. The main road to Canterbury was Shottendane Road, and then what’s now the little lane out the back of Acol toward Monkton.

My own house isn’t shown, which is not a surprise, as it wasn’t built until around 1845.

The other place name which caught my eye is “Jack-a-Bakers”, which presumably slowly altered.

On the planning issues, I agree with almost all of the McKinstry article, particularly that the current system “makes a mockery of local democracy”. I live in Westgate, but represent Bradstowe (North Broadstairs) on the District Council. We’ve had two similar demolish-and-build applications in the last six months to knock down fine old houses and replace them with blocks of flats, both, in my view, of wildly unsuitable character. Both were declined by the Council, but one has now gone to appeal.

Not only is the appeals system something of a lottery, but, if overturned, will cost Thanet taxpayers thousands of pounds. We need a higher hurdle of justification for appeals, which is currently cheap and easy for the applicant. They have little to lose.

It makes me wonder what the point is of having a local plan with housing land identified. I’ve no objection to development, nor radical or modern architecture, but always in context and place.

Regards to all

Ewen Cameron

Tony Beachcomber said...

Simon, there was once a Civic ritual called "beating of the bounds" which was more a bit of fun than anything else. It invovled the Mayor, Councillors and the Church. I believe from photos it involved using sticks to splash water in a ditch on the borough boundry. Sounds spooky.
Around the 1920's land between westgate on sea and westbrook would have been undeveloped. Bearing in mind Westgate was not part of the Borough of the Margate in them days there would have been some sort of boundry in that area where such an event would take place. There are photographs taken by George Phillip Hoare in the Margate Museum of the "beating of the bounds", but where in Margate it took place I do not know.

Tony Beachcomber said...

Ewen, on your map is St Mildreds bay refered to as Marsh Bay.

Anonymous said...

On the bridleway that runs East from Sparrow Castle pumping station (on Manston Road)to Park Road, is a Margate borough boundary sign in cast iron and bedded in concrete.

Anonymous said...

11.44, as a regular reader of Thanetlife, I find your comment:
"Could any of your non extremist contributors to this site let me know how Westgate~on~Sea obtained its name", a little offensive. Its implication is that this site is visited by 'extremists'! Your comment is akin to the question "When did you stop beating your wife?"

Michael Child said...

Simon it occurs to me that it could be the parish old boundary, 11.44 its difficult to apply an extremist etymology of gate, this is my best shot (sic) opening it the cliff ibid. Rams.. Mar.. opp. Cow &.. whoops sorry I think I have been reading too much Lewis anyway I have published up the next 2 pages to the end of the chapter.

I think Margate Museum is likely to have quite a bit of useful Westgate material, what we ought to do I think is try and persuade the council and trustees that if the collection has to close, before all the printed material goes into storage where it is no longer accessible to local people as much as possible is scanned. If this is done it can be freely available on the web and some of the more useful things I am happy to reprint.

A prime example of what I mean is All About Margate and Herne Bay. This very scarce Margate and Herne Bay guide previously published in 1866. I expect the museum has a copy but the originals are very frail scarce and expensive so they probably wouldn’t let you handle it. Once I got my hands of a copy you can either by a modern paper reprint from me for £6.99 or you can go to http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/mhb/ where the whole book is available free. Alternatively I can sell you an original copy for £150

DrMoores said...

Good idea Michael and you are probably right about the parish boundary!

DrMoores said...

My own house was here (1791) before any other I know of in Westgate - not Garlinge and still standing - and the oldest property of all, appears to have been a Roman villa which would have been roughly where the Nottingham Castle pub is now but I suspect along the line of the stream which ran into the sea between Old Boundary and Beach Road (you can still see fresh water bubbling-up at low tide) and we have a blocked-up well and stand-pump in our garden which I assume leads down to it.

Ewen Cameron said...

Hi Tony

You are absolutely right - it does call it "Marsh Bay" (do you know why?). A lot of the coast sites are differently named to the present time. The area to the East of Margate is shown as New Gate, followed by Palmers Bay (presumably now Palm Bay). Most of the land sites are the same or similar, though some seem to have disappeared (e.g. Ozengal)

The map was made by C M Hinds, Surveyor, of Ramsgate, and published by R T Jarman, Bookseller, also of Ramsgate, perhaps an ancestor of Michael!

If it's of interest, I can scan it (it's framed, but should go in the scanner) and maybe Simon can add it to his blog (if, of course he wishes). It looks to have been printed, but then hand coloured. Quite a treasure. well, to me, anyway! I'd also be interested in any opinions on when it was made - all I know was it was offered as "believed circa 1790" when I acquired it.

Regards

Ewen Cameron

P.S. - on re-examining it, it shows West Gate Bay as three words. There are four dwellings shown, labeled W.Gate - i.e. two words again

Anonymous said...

Er....anyone any thoughts on the development issues?

Anonymous said...

No, as most of the Isle and Westgate area is disappearing under concrete, were all having a glorious nostalgia fest instead.

Anonymous said...

There used to be a lot of open area around Lymington Road/Linksfield Road and Canterbury Road and in 5 years we have seen St. Augustine's College old playing fields concreted; most of the grass area of Ursuline concreted and now a big shed on Ethelberts Field! Seeing that a member of their PE staff has a little difficulty at the moment I hope that their new Sports Hall wasn't being viewed for evening Community use with a difference!

Michael Child said...

It’s the population explosion and we all know that we are ok if we have somewhere to live, anyone want to comment with their pda from their cardboard box on building more housing, I just don’t know the answer.

Anonymous said...

Speaking as someone who went to school in Westgate and still owns a property there,I would like to see the town/village with it's own Parish Council or as part a Margate Town Council.

John Worrow

Birchington Resident

Michael Child said...

Just for your pleasure another of his wonderful maps http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/map1849/
Perhaps you can do a link Simon

Anonymous said...

Yes that would be good for local democracy John. I'm looking forward to the Ramsgate Town elections coming up soon.


David Walton

IA Ramsgate Branch

DrMoores said...

I have added a link in the story. Thanks Michael

Michael Child said...

Just a thought perhaps a few notes on our first historian for SS as the thread is tiring and the fringe is moving in


JOHN LEWIS was born at Bristol, Aug. 29, 1675, and educated at the grammar school of Poole, in Dorsetshire; from thence he proceeded to Exeter College, Oxford, where he took his bachelor's degree in Arts, and was soon after ordained deacon by Bishop Compton; about the close of the century, he took upon him the cure of Acryse, and lived at the same time in the family of Philip Papillon, Esq., to whom his behaviour rendered him so acceptable, that, although he had left the parish, and was then chaplain to Paul Foley, Esq., upon the death of the incumbent he was presented to the living, Sept. 4, 1699. He now applied himself to repair a dilapidated parsonagehouse, as well as to discharge his pastoral duties with all diligence; he found a kind friend in Archbishop Tenison, who had heard a good character of him, and granted him the sequestration of the little rectory of Hawkinge, near Dover, 1702. It was at this time that his acquaintance began with Mr. Johnson, of Margate, who recommended him for his successor in that laborious cure; but his old friend and patron Mr. Papillon, being unwilling to part with him, he excused himself to the archbishop at that time; afterwards, upon the resignation of Mr. Warren, he accepted it in 1705 ; in 1706, he was collated to the rectory of Saltwood, with the chapel of Hythe, and the desolate rectory of Eastbridge; but, being here disturbed by a dispute with a neighbouring squire, his patron removed him to the vicarage of Mynstre, where he re-built the parsonagehouse in a more elegant and commodious manner.

A Sermon that he had preached at Canterbury Cathedral on Jan. 30, being severely reflected upon, he printed a defence, which was so highly approved of by Archbishop Wake, that he rewarded him with the mastership of Eastbridy Hospital; from that time he was continually employed on his various publications and correspondence with the" literary men of his time. He died Jan. 16, 1746, and, at his own desire, was buried in the chancel of his church at Mynstre. Besides his Histories of the Isle of Thanet and Faversham, he wrote a great number of Sermons, Theological Pamphlets, and Biographies. He also left numerous manuscripts, which are scattered about in public and private libraries. Among others, he left Memoirs of his Life, written by himself, which was lately in the collection of Mr. Heber, then in the hands of the Rev. Thomas Streatfield, now in the British Library.

It was Lewis's misfortune to live in a time of much party violence, and, being a moderate man, he met with ill usage, from both parties, particularly from the clergy of his own diocese. He was so diligent a preacher, that, we are told, he composed more than a thousand sermons. He was always of opinion that a clergyman should compose his own sermons, and therefore ordered his executor to destroy his stock, lest they should contribute to the indolence of others. Having no family (for his wife died young without issue), he expended a great deal of money on his library, and the repairs of his dilapidated parsonage-houses, and was, at the same time, a liberal benefactor to the poor.


The Rev. Roger Huggett, of Stone, in Thanet, the contemporary and friend of Lewis, was strongly attached to the study of Antiquity, Heraldry, and Topography. His own copy of the History of Tenet, second edition, quarto 1736, the margins of which were covered with MS. Notes and Illustrations, was left as an heirloom to his family. This volume had been lost for several years, and was at length discovered to be in the possession of Mr. R. Freeman, who, as appears by advertisement in the Kentish Gazette, Aug. 11, 1809, was about to publish a third and improved edition. By the exertion of Mr. Boys, it was recovered and restored to a descendant of the family.

When Rev. Lewis talks of a pound 1l it is the equivalent in value to about £80 today.

From David Hannaford the archivist of Margate Public Library.

I have fished out large paper 2nd ed & how fascinating it is! The manuscript in front signed Peter Thompson of Bermondsey (publisher) 15th Feb 1760 records 170 small paper and 19 large paper copies of the 2nd edition sold to Mr John Osborn of Turville Court Bucks, son of John Osborn late bookseller of Paternoster Row. Later in the ms Thompson accounts for costs to printers, engravers etc and lists some of the purchasers.Total number published was 250. A pencilled note (presumably Parker) notes that of these only 20 were large paper.

Large paper copies were sold at 21 shillings and the small at 14 shillings.

Thompson poignantly writes "Mr Lewis died 1746. Mr John Osborn died. Mr Ames died 7th October 1759. so that I am the only person living this 15th feb:1760 that was concerned with printing this 2nd edition as witness my hand Peter Thompson".

Best wishes David.

Criticism in the eighteenth centenary was even more robust than in the nineteenth

Of this book The Antiquities of Thanet, Thomas Alien, Vicar of Murston, sometime Fellow of University College, writes to his friend Thomas Heame, the antiquary, of Edmund Hall that "it has only an indifferent character and is a poor performance." Heame refers to "that vile, silly Pimp, that vile wretch, Lewis the Pyrate, the same poor writer that drew up and published Wicliffs Life. He is a Wiclivist, Calvinist, Puritan & Republican, and hath wrote and published divers other things of no manner of Esteem among honest learned men. Lewis has the character of a rogue and a villain."

It was at this time quite easy for a minister to live off the income of his parish while using curates, deacon churchwardens, etc to do the work. The standards of the time were very different to today. To quote the article by Canon Shirley who studied the records of the Canterbury diocese. Patten of Whitstable kept a mistress and did not pay his debts; Bourn of Ash was "allied to the sons of Eli" ; Roberts of Queenborough, ale-house sot and debtor, "so impudent as nothing is like him"; Bate of Chilham, "proudest and stiffest man" in the diocese, allowing corpses to lie unburied for want of fees; Burroughs of Kingston, "most horribly covetous" ; Ansell of Stowting and Cade of Sellindge, Jacobites and taven-brawlers; Edward Dering of Charing who fought his own sister at the Swan Inn and threw her "head-cloaths" into the fire; Hobbs of Dover, who amassed pluralities; Isles of New Romney a notorious sot and Jacobite; Nicholls of Fordwich who preached that George was a Foreigner, a Lutheran, and a Beggar-"a wicked, swearing. Lying, Drunken man".

John Lewis was Vicar of St. John's in Margate from 1705 to 1746. Archbishop Wake's private notebook (Notitia Dioces Cantuar,) now in Canterbury Cathedral Library describes Lewis as, a conscientious studious hardworking jolly good chap. "vir probus, doctus, diligens; concionator bonus.

Anonymous said...

Once again Mr Child thank you and others who have contributed to this interesting article giving me previously unknown information concerning the village of Westgate~on~Sea.

4:35....In reply.....I never did stop beating (at chess, Backgammon,investigating, Tiddlywinks, Constructive comments and debates) my ex-wife, not even in the divorce court.

Regretfully I find the back biting and snide comments that appear on this Dr Moores site quite frequently rather childish and boring hence my infrequent visits.

ss

Anonymous said...

A pity that no comment is possible on another strand. No charge means no charge and until a charge is put then no wrong doing is alleged; so why is a good man being suspended from his work? Please remove this comment Doc, if you feel I have broken your Editorial position.

Tony Beachcomber said...

Ewen, Marsh Bay was the scene of a battle between smugglers and men of the coastal blockade in September 1821. The area was described as a desolate wild place at the time.
The smugglers came off worse with 15 transported and 4 publicly hanged

Michael Child said...

10.28the posthumous confessions and letters and prayers of a Robert Foulkes, vicar of Stanton Lacy in Shropshire. Although a scholar, and married with two sons, in 1677 he had got a young girl with child, and then murdered the child; for which he was condemned to death.
He wrote the fine muscular pre-Dryden English of the mid-seventeenth century. He had mounted to the top of impiety, even though he had known that the minister is the people's Looking-glass. Crush the cockatrice he groaned from his death cell. I am dead in law — but of the girl he denied that he had attempted to vitiate her for upon the word of a dying man, both her Eyes did see, and her Hands did act in all that was done

Anonymous said...

ss, if you want some serious back biting and snide comments, remove yourself to Thanetonian and you will find OVIT really boring in comparison. I personally, find the level on Thanetlife quite fine in comparison.

Ewen Cameron said...

Thanks for that, Tony – more local knowledge added – nice to know I live in a “desolate and wild place" (and, tonight, cruelly cold).

Michael – a question for you, if I am not presuming too much on your expertise in books and maps. Thank you for posting your own map, which I much enjoyed, and will go back and study. I am a bit puzzled – yours is obviously 1849, as it has the year printed on it. If mine is indeed circa 1790 (I have no idea if this is correct, but Simon’s comment in the date of his house seems to confirm this is the latest it could be), how could they have the same Mr Hinds as the Surveyor? He must either have been very long-lived, or, perhaps, he was published over many years.

Comments would be very much appreciated.

I also have a good idea where you can get your A0 print done – I will mail you privately, as I also have a business query for you.

With regards

Ewen Cameron

DrMoores said...

In reply to 10:28, it is a "public interest story" reported in the national press and reproduced in summary here, without comment.

In this example, I don't believe comments on the subject, which remains the subject of a police enquiry, would be useful or helpful and may indeed prove prejudicial, given the vindictive record of some of our occasional contributors.

Michael Child said...

Ewen a quick glance at the map makes me think it to be after 1791 as it appears to show the extension to Ramsgate’s east pier completed in that year. It has the style and look of the late 1700s or early 1800s

I will do some more research on the map and come back hopefully with a more accurate answer.

I would very much like to get the Ramsgate map printed usually the problem is the investment per item printed you have to appreciate that I now have about 120 local books in print. I am also concerned that the printing method used won’t fade as my primary objective is to preserve our local history.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Anonymous said...

How has Dr Moores been able to pinpoint the age of his house so accurately? I would be most interested as we have a house that we consider to be of similar age.

DrMoores said...

Admiralty records!

Anonymous said...

I have passed your lovely house many times and never realised it was that old - is it listed or on the Council's site of historic interest? I must however express my disappointment that the original sash windows have been replaced with horrid UPVC - it is a pity and hardly in keeping with a house of that age or standing.

Ewen Cameron said...

Michael, I have mailed you on both points. I hope it's of help.

Concerning dating houses, I have no useful documents in my own home's Deeds, but an architect friend looked it over many years ago, and found an unusual type of brick that was only produced, he told me, within a five-to-seven year period. 1845 was his middle guess. It was then an annexe to a much larger Manor House built at the same time (now gone), so any local historians may have more of an idea.

Regards

Ewen Cameron

Jeremy Jacobs said...

The author of this post is living in the past. People in this country will have to just accept that we cannot just reverse population expansion. We live in a country apparently of 60 million people (my personal view is that it's nearer 65 million. They all need housing, schools, hospitals and so on.
The days of having your semi-detached with garden in a nice suburb or even "villages" like Westgate are firmly coming to an end.
Want isolation? Try Mauritania or the Solomon Islands

Michael Child said...

I think I have solved the conundrum of the map, it is a prime example of how local history is inclined to tell us lies, because the further back one goes in time the less people are able to produce accuracy.

I think what happened that around 1800 someone did a fairly decent private commercial survey of The Isle of Thanet, all the earlier maps that I have ever seen show something that is essential the wrong shape, see the map of 1732 at http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/catalogue/id51.htm

The earliest fairly accurate map or Thanet that I can put a date to, that I have is 1800 it comes from my copy of Hasted’s History of Kent http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/tol/map_of_thanet_about_1800.htm as you can see it is considerably more primitive than Hinds’s map, the earliest Thanet map I have that looks the right shape is in my 1809 guide produced by Hogben Surveyor Margate http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/id213.htm

Anyway you have to appreciate that no one surveyor prior to the triangulation of the whole country and the publication of the Ordnance Survey map in 1819, made one survey and got the shape of Thanet right.

Looking at the 1819 OS map I don’t think Hinds used this for the basis of his map so either he drew it before 1819 or was scared of the copyright implications.

Anyway once he had drawn his map he stuck with it, here is the 1872 edition of the same map http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/id211.htm copied from Charles Busson’s The Book of Ramsgate. With railway corrections showing the railway built in 1863 rather proving the point.

So how much Mr Hinds copied from other maps and how much he surveyed himself is a matter of conjecture, however I suspect when he drew the map of Ramsgate in 1849 he may have had more than a passing glance at Collard and Hurst’s map of 1822 http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/tol/map_of_ramsgate_in_1822.htm

However it is as well to remember that the first triangulation survey of England in 1787 was made for military purposes the first survey using trigonometry was started in 1791 so in the late 1700s and early 1800s was pretty much rocket science.

Michael Child said...

Well I thought that was that but something about the 1872 edition of the map niggled at me last night, it was that it shows the parish boundary or St Lawrence and the boundary of Ramsgate Cinque Port but it doesn’t show other parish boundaries. Now these two boundaries are not on the earlier edition of the map I was trying to date. So I looked in the main history of St Lawrence written by Charles Cotton and published in 1895 facing page 14 is the map that Busson calls the 1872 map of Thanet. It is fairly obvious that the parish boundaries were added to the map in 1895 as it is facing a page about the parish boundaries. It is also obvious that this is where Busson copied it from, although he doesn’t say so. Why he should call a map published in 1895 an 1872 map of Thanet is beyond me.

Now looking at the first map I am fairly certain that it was drawn between 1791 and 1810 this hinges on the way Ramsgate Harbour is shown. If you look carefully you will see that the harbour cross wall has two gates and a further opening at the western end. Now in Smeaton’s plan of the harbour in 1791 http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/Smeaton/ you will see that the cross wall has only one set of gates but does not extend quite as far as the west pier. The next plan of Ramsgate Harbour I have is 1817 this shows two sets of gates and the cross wall extending all the way to the west pier. As Hinds was a Ramsgate surveyor I don’t think he would have made a mistake about the shape of Ramsgate harbour and I feel this map must date from between when the second gate was put in the cross wall and the cross wall extended to the west pier.

My guess is that that Cotton wanted in 1895 to use a map of Thanet that was not subject to copyright and so drew the parish boundaries and the railways on and that Busson when he used the map from cotton guessed the date of the map from the railways.

The final act of misinformation that I have found so far is that in section 8 of The Ramsgate Millennium Book where the map is dated 1872 so there you have it, our main source of Ramsgate history patently wrong.

I should add that it would have been most unusual to write an s in the shape of an f after 1820.

You have to be rather tenacious to make any progress with local history.

Ewen Cameron said...

Fascinating stuff, Michael, and thank you.

It seems either my memory is faulty, or my attention to detail inadequate. On re-examining the back of the frame it carries a small label which reads;

"The antiquarian map was published circe (handwritten) 1800.

Warwick Leadley Gallery, 5 Nelson Road, Greenwich SE10 9JB"

This was the dealers I bought it from. They must, I think, have bought up a job lot of prints of East Kent, as I also bought several engravings of Sandwich and one of Dover form them around this time.

Whatever - the date seems to correspond to your own expert judgement. I've much enjoyed discovering how approximate the art of mapping used to be!

Regards

Ewen Cameron

Michael Child said...

Ewen most of these old maps were cut from books and then hand coloured and I expect it was the gallery that chopped up the book it came from had it coloured and dated it from the date of the book.

I have done the same thing as my comments on my own blog but with the pictures and links included something I lack the ability to do in comments you may find that it’s easier to follow.

With the whole history thing my interest is relatively recent, but one thing I have noticed is that historians are inclined to have an idea and then look for the information to support it, not a very scientific approach.

I find it truly staggering how difficult it is to find out about major local events even within living memory, I have been trying now for three years for instance to find pictures of the 1953 storm damage in Ramsgate, so when we get back 200 years I trust very little.
If you are in the shop at some time I recommend you have a look at some of the guidebooks and histories of this area published around 1800 however I should warn you that our local history is highly addictive.